访谈｜澳门大学社会学系主任徐峻：青年学生应该如何学习？如何读书？如何研究？

Professor Jun Xu obtained his PhD degree in sociology from Indiana University. Before joining UM, he taught sociology and data/statistical science courses at Ball State University. Professor Xu’s primary research/teaching interests include data and statistical science (computational social science, Bayesian statistics, categorical data analysis, causal inference, machine learning), Asia and Asian America (Asian Americans and China), health and social epidemiology (health disparities, healthcare systems and utilization, and international health), social demography, and welfare systems and political economy. His work has appeared in, among others, Comparative Education Review, Social Forces, Social Science & Medicine, Sociological Methods and Research, Social Science Research, and The Stata Journal. He has also published two books – Ordered Regression Models and Modern Applied Regressions – on regression analysis of categorical and limited response variables.

徐峻教授於印第安納大學獲得社會學博士學位。在加入澳門大學前，他在Ball State University執教社會學、數據科學、統計學等課程。徐峻教授的學術興趣廣泛，包括數據和統計科學、亞洲和亞裔研究、健康和社會流行病學、社會人口學以及福利系統和政治經濟學等諸多領域。他的研究成果見於 Comparative Education Review, Social Forces, Social Science & Medicine, Sociological Methods and Research, Social Science Research, The Stata Journal 等知名學術期刊。此外他還出版了《有序回歸模型》和《現代應用回歸》等學術專著。

1. How did you start your academic career? Where did the initial interest and curiosity come from?

1. 請問您是如何走上學術道路？最初的興趣和動力來自哪裡？

From early on, probably around my undergraduate years, I already decided to become an academic/scholar, through reading various biographies of great Chinese intellectuals. I just felt in love with their lifestyle. Back then, it was very fashionable and even imperative for college graduates in Beijing and Shanghai to go abroad, especially the US, for advanced study. I am an avid reader with a curious mind, and I have always had a critical mind, so sociology was a natural choice.

很早以前，大概在本科時期，通過閱讀許多中國偉人的傳記，我就已經決定要成為一名學者，我喜歡他們的生活方式。那時候，北京和上海的本科畢業生出國（特別是美國）深造是非常時髦的一件事（甚至是必須要做的）。我喜歡閱讀，有好奇心和批判性思維，所以社會學自然而然地成了我的選擇。

2. You have a broad range of research interests, including statistical methods and empirical fields such as Asian Americans, racial and ethnic studies, health and mental well-being, education, and so on. How did you find subjects and topics that you feel passionate about? How to turn these ideas into concrete research projects? 

2. 您的研究興趣廣泛，包括統計方法、亞裔研究、種族研究、健康和心理福祉、教育等領域。您是如何找到自己感興趣的研究主題的？又是如何將這些想法轉化為具體的研究項目的呢？

I study things that I feel passionate or have curiosity about. In sociology, I can study almost anything I want. That is what I love about sociology – a lively and inclusive discipline with possibilities. And I AM an intellectual omnivore, to be honest. I started as a “literary youth” in college, and I still think that I love literature, history and philosophy the most. But it is obvious that these things will not get me a decent/comfortable life these days (probably even more so today). After years of learning and research, I have figured out that I only study things that 1) I feel passionate about, 2) meaningful, and 3) I can be good at. I love history, including the history of statistics/science. When I worked on my book project on modern applied regressions, the most fun part was to learn about the origin and evolution of those statistical concepts and techniques. I usually find my passions from two sources. One is my own experience, for example being an Asian in America is quite an interesting experience given that the US is a highly racialized society. Statistics is quite useful in social science, or literally any scientific area these days, and I bend it towards and fuse with history and philosophy. I then just love it and get more fun from learning and researching statistics and data science. I also acquire my passion through reading books in other seemingly unrelated areas, for example, philosophy and popular science books on physics.

我研究自己熱衷的或十分好奇的事物。在社會學裡，我幾乎可以研究任何我想研究的東西，這就是我喜歡社會學的原因，這是一門鮮活、包容及充滿可能性的學科。

老實說，我是個知識方面的雜食主義者。大學時，我是大家口中的文藝青年，到現在也覺得自己最愛文學、歷史和哲學。但顯然，這些東西在當代並不能讓我過上像樣或舒適的生活（可能在當下更是如此）。經過多年的學習和研究，我想明白了，我只研究（1）有意義的（2）且我熱衷的（3）並擅長的事情。我喜歡歷史，包括統計學的歷史及科學史。在編撰《現代應用回歸》這本書時，於我而言最有趣的部分就是了解這些統計概念和技術的起源與演變。

總的來説，我對學術研究的熱情主要有兩個來源，其一是個人的體驗與經歷，比如我在美國生活時，“亞洲人”的身份是一個相當有趣的體驗，因為美國是一個高度種族分化的社會。再比如，統計學在社會科學及現在的所有科學領域中都相當有用，於是我將它與歷史和哲學相結合，然後我就愛上了它，從不斷的學習和研究中獲得更多的樂趣。其二，我會透過閱讀其他看似與社會學或統計不相關的書籍來探索研究的興趣和熱情，例如，與哲學相關的書籍和物理方面的暢銷書。

3. You are an expert in quantitative methods and have published in well-respected methodological journals such as SMR and Stata Journal. Can you give some advice for students who hope to learn statistics and programming languages well?

3. 您是定量研究方法方面的專家，曾在SMR和Stata Journal等知名的方法學期刊上發表過文章。能請您給希望學好統計學和編程語言的學生一些建議嗎？

I am an accidental methodologist. If one wants to learn statistics and programming well, he/she may need to have curiosity, perseverance, and the right methods. Learning stats and math is quite different from learning sociology, whereby people could jump around with their readings and learnings. To learn about statistics, one must go through the training methodically in the right sequence. I would suggest people learn calculus, linear algebra, probability theory, and probably basic programming skills before getting into too much statistics and data science. Knowing sufficient math before plunging into intermediate and advanced statistics is like to purchase a ticket for riding on a bullet train. That can really speed up the learning process dramatically, as opposed to just knowing high-school math while trying to trudge through statistics. Gadgets and gimmicks do matter. Advanced math is an important gadget for picking up statistics and programming. It is very much like absorbing/reaping enough energy/power/resources to fight a worthy fight as a warrior in a strategy-themed video game. Also, somehow you must have curiosity to begin with. For example, statistical programming or programming itself can be quite fun. If you think doing something is fun, then learning it will not be that hard. To create curiosity, I would recommend reading biographies of great thinkers or intellectuals, or simply reading great books (especially classics) by great thinkers with great ideas.

對我來説，成爲一名統計學者，純屬偶然。如果一個人想要學好統計學和編程語言，他/她需要具備好奇心、毅力，掌握正確的方法。學習統計與學習社會學有很大的不同，在社會學的學習中，人們可以隨心所欲地閱讀和學習；統計學則不然，初學者必須按照正確的順序有條不紊地進行訓練。

我建議大家先學習微積分、線性代數、概率理論，以及基本的程序設計技巧，然後再深入學習統計和數據科學。在深入學習高級統計之前先掌握足夠的數學知識，就像是購買一張搭乘快速列車的車票，可以大幅加快學習過程；而不是只懂高中數學，卻要在統計學中艱苦跋涉。有時掌握一些小工具和花招也很重要。打個比方，高等數學就是開啟統計學之旅的重要工具，就像是在策略類的電玩遊戲中，玩家作爲一個戰士，先吸收或積蓄足夠的能量、力量和資源，再打一場值得一戰的勝仗。

此外，好奇心也是不可或缺的。對我來説，統計程序或程序設計本身就相當有趣。如果你覺得做某件事情很有趣，那麼學習本身就不會太困難。為了激發好奇心，我建議大家閱讀優秀的科學家或統計學者的人物傳記，或是簡單地閲讀他們所撰寫的著作，尤其是經典名著，瞭解其中的科學理論。

4. What advice do you have for bachelor’s, master’s, and doctoral students in sociology programs?

4. 您對社會學系的本科生、碩士生和博士生有甚麽建議？

Read classics, read classics, and read classics when you are young and learn how to program and especially math as much as you can. Regarding reading classics, they do not have to be about sociology, and even better not; they can be literature, history, and philosophy, all of them, as much as possible. If you are not an avid reader or curious learner, sociology is probably not for you. Definitely, you don’t want to go through graduate school torturing yourself, if you don’t like reading, learning or thinking.

在你尚且年少的時候，閲讀經典名著！閲讀經典名著！閲讀經典名著！並且，盡可能地掌握更多有關程序語言和數學的知識。關於閱讀，不一定是要和社會學相關的，甚至有時候最好不是，大家可以盡可能地讀一些文學、歷史、哲學方面的作品。一個學生如果不是熱愛閱讀或充滿好奇心的學習者，那他可能不是一個合格的社會學系的學生。可以肯定的是，一個人如果不喜歡閱讀、學習或思考，就不會想在研究生生涯中錘煉自己。

5. Could you please recommend some books/papers to the students of sociology?

5. 您能與社會學系的學生分享一些推薦書籍嗎？

Here are a few that students may find super interesting: Tao Te Ching （《道德經》）, Zhuang Zi （《莊子》）, Poetry by Su Dongpo （《蘇軾詩詞集》）, The Story of Philosophy by Will Durant（杜蘭特《哲學的故事》）, The History of Western Philosophy by Bertrand Russell （羅素《西方哲學史》）, The Lady Tasting Tea by David Salsburg （《女士品茶：統計學如何變革了科學和生活》）, Infinite Powers by Steven Strogatz （史蒂夫-斯托加茨《無限的力量》，又譯作：《微積分的力量）》）, and Calculus Made Easy by Silvanus P. Thompson and Martin Gardner （《微積分輕鬆學》）。

6. You have been working and living in the United States for the past decades. How would you compare the work environment and lifestyles in China vs. the US? What factors motivated your decision to join the University of Macau?

6. 過去數十年來，您一直在美國工作和生活。您會如何比較中國與美國的工作環境和生活方式？是甚麼因素促使您決定加入澳門大學？

It is hard to say. For many asking me what the US is really like, I would strongly recommend that they read 1) the history of the ancient Roman Empire/Republic and 2) The Federalist Papers. If I have to make comparisons, then China is like a wandering creek on a scenic woody mountain, serene and naturalistic, and the US is like a brigantine floating on a tempestuous sea, quite surreal; at least that’s how I feel about them. It took me—as a sociologist, ironically—almost 25 years to figure out what the US is really like and how the system functions. 

There are several major factors motivating me to join UM. The most obvious one is that UM is a young and up-and-coming university with rich resources in research and teaching. It is so impressive that within such a short timeframe, UM has grown from an almost unknown community-oriented teaching college to a world-renowned research university with a Times world ranking of 180th. I am also at a career stage where a leadership position may put my intelligence, wisdom, and talents to its best use. So a young and vibrant sociology department at an up-and-coming but very promising university is probably the best place to realize the greatest potential of both, myself and the department, hopefully. Second, the sociology department here at UM has a group of young and very talented scholars. It is critically important for successful intellectuals producing their most important works to be surrounded by the most invigorating, innovative and intelligent people. UM sociology provides exactly such an intellectual milieu. Another reason is probably I want some change, major change, and something different, quite different, in my life. I’ve lived two lives, one in China, one in the US, and now my third life begins in Macau, a place quite different from the mainland, and the US. Macau is an amazing place, at the crossroads of four-five different cultures. For most people, they only live one life. For one life, I don’t mean biological time. I actually mean experience. All philosophers agree that life is meaningless. Then how to make one’s life meaningful? I receive this same question many times from different people. One way to make one’s life meaningful is to experience different cultures (e.g., living in different countries/places) to enrich life (e.g., the breadth of life). Actually, nothing gets more exciting than that, I believe. So, I very much look forward to beginning living my third life here in Macau.

我很難做一個比較恰當的比較。許多人問我美國到底是甚麼樣的，我會強烈建議他們瞭解古羅馬帝國或共和國的歷史及閲讀《聯邦黨人文集》。如果非要做個比較，那麼中國就像風景秀麗的山林中一條飄蕩的小溪，寧靜而自然；而美國就像一艘漂浮在波濤洶湧的大海上的雙桅帆船，相當超現實。至少我是這麼覺得的。諷刺的是，身為社會學家的我，花了將近 25 年的時間，才搞清楚美國到底是甚麼樣子的，以及美國的體系是如何運作的。

促使我加入澳門大學的因素主要有以下幾個。首先，最重要的是，澳門大學是一所年輕的新興大學，擁有豐富的研究和教學資源。澳門大學在如此短的時間内，從一所默默無聞的以服務澳門華人社區爲導向的教學型院校，轉變爲一所世界知名的研究型大學，並在最新的泰晤士高等教育(Times Higher Education, THE)世界大學排名中躍升至第180位，給我留下了深刻的印象。與此同時，我也正處在一個適合擔任領導者的職業生涯階段，一個領頭負責人的職位或許能夠讓我的智慧、學識與才能發揮到極致。因此，任職於一所嶄露頭角且極具潛力與前景的大學中的年輕且充滿活力的社會學系，可能是發揮我本人及學系的最大潛能的最佳選擇。

其次，澳大社會學系裏有一群才華出衆、能力突出的年輕學者。對於成功的科研工作者來説，有一群最有活力、最有創新精神且睿智的成員在身邊，才能產出最重要的研究著作，這是非常重要的。澳大社會學系恰好提供了這樣的學術環境與氛圍。

另外一個原因是我想要一些改變（重大的改變），一些不一樣的（甚至是完全不同）的東西。在我的人生中，我已經度過了兩段不一樣的生活，一段在中國内地，一段在美國。而現在的我，在澳門開啟了第三段全新的生活。澳門是一個神奇的地方，是一個與中國内地和美國都不同的地方，在這裏有四五種不同的文化交匯融合。對大多數人來說，人生只有一次。這裏我強調的“人生”，不是指人在生物意義上的時間、生命，而是人生經歷、閲歷。所有哲學家都同意生命是無意義的。那麼，如何讓自己的生命變得有意義呢？很多不同的人都問過我這個問題，而且不止一次。在我看來，讓生命有意義的方法之一，就是體驗不同的文化（例如：生活在不同的國家或地區），讓生命更豐富（例如：不斷拓寬生命的寬度）。事實上，我相信沒有甚麽比這更令人興奮的事了。因此，我非常期待在這裡開始的第三段生活。

7. How do you feel about the University of Macau, and the city of Macau in general? Is there anything you plan to explore or try in the next year?

7. 您對澳門大學和澳門有甚麼感覺？在未來一年，有甚麼打算去探索或嘗試的嗎？

I like Macau and the University of Macau a lot. Macau is a unique place. It is at a crossroads of about four different cultures (Southern European, Southern Chinese, Anglican, American and Chinese). I would call myself an internationalist. I love exploring diverse cultures and societies. Macau gives me this wonderful opportunity. At the same time, UM is an up-and-coming great young university with rich resources, talented faculty, and vibrant research milieu. I have several major research/writing projects that I hope can benefit from such a great research environment and be conducted here.

我很喜歡澳門和澳門大學。澳門是一個很獨特的地方，它大概是四五種不同文化（南歐文化、嶺南文化、聖公會文化、美國文化和中國文化）的交匯點。我稱自己為國際主義者，喜歡探索不同的文化和社會，澳門恰好給了我這個絕佳的機會。同時，澳門大學是一所嶄露頭角的年輕大學，擁有豐富的資源、實力雄厚的師資和充滿活力的科研環境。我有幾個重要的研究項目，希望能在這樣一個良好的研究環境下進行。