观众问答：能否引导欧洲人的民族认同感，去推动从美国获取主权？

主持人何婕：我们本次讨论的话题是“对话希腊前财长：再议欧洲的未来”。现场有很多观众，他们一起参加讨论，好吗？来，大家举手示意吧，来，欢迎。

面临欧洲衰退

欧洲民众心态怎样

吴所谓：两位老师好，主持人好。

主持人何婕：你好。

吴所谓：我的问题是现在欧洲经济下行趋势比较明显，欧洲内部的产业问题还有移民问题都是比较严重的，外部的话，俄乌冲突的阴云也一直笼罩。我想问亚尼斯教授，在这样严峻的形势下，欧洲各国的民众是一种怎样的心态？谢谢。

亚尼斯·瓦鲁法基斯：Thank you for your question. It's a very pertinent one. With sadness in my heart as a European, I have to say that firstly, the situation in Ukraine is a reflection of the terrible architectural design, which is shrinking. The reason why our European leaders cannot speak their minds is because the investment strike of the last 20 years has left the German industrial machine, the Italian economy, the Greek economy, in a state of complete stagnation. And in some cases, as I said, decline. When do you have? And I think that people in China understand this very well. When we have decline, the politics cannot be on the ascendancy. You need to have a strong foundation on which to build a boisterous democracy, political decision-making system. This is what is happening.

谢谢你的提问。这是一个非常中肯的问题。作为一名欧洲人，我怀着悲伤的心情必须说。首先，乌克兰的局势反映了欧洲这个不断萎缩的糟糕的架构设计。我们的欧洲领导人之所以无法畅所欲言，是因为过去20年的投资停滞使得德国的工业机器、意大利经济和希腊经济完全停滞不前，甚至在某些情况下出现了衰退。你问我们现在处于什么状态？我认为中国人对此非常清楚。当我们处于衰退时，政治不可能向上发展。你需要有一个坚实的基础，才能建立一个蓬勃发展的民主和政治决策系统。这正是我们所经历的情况。

I remember some time ago, I taught at the University of Texas in the United States, and one of my colleagues used to be the Chief of Staff, a general in NATO. He was a Republican. So you can imagine that my relationship with him was a very friendly one, but a very strange one as well. I said: do we need NATO? This was in 2014. Do we need NATO, we Europeans? Do we need NATO? He said, no, we should have dissolved NATO after 1991. This is a Republican general of the United States Army that was Chief of Staff. I said, ok, so why do you still continue to have it? He said, three reasons. First, to keep ourselves in Europe. Secondly, to keep the Russians out. Thirdly, to keep Germany down. When we Europeans allow a terrible architectural design to keep crumbling without doing something about that,of course then they succeed.

之前我在美国德克萨斯大学教书，那里有一位同事曾是北约的参谋长，一位共和党的将军。你可以想象，我与他的关系既友好又奇特。2014年的时候我问他：“我们还需要北约吗？”我说，“作为欧洲人，我们还需要北约吗？”他回答，“不”，“我们应该在1991年解散北约。”这是一位美国军队的共和党将军，曾担任参谋长。我问，那你们为什么还在继续保持北约？他说有三个原因。第一，为了让美国留在欧洲；第二，阻止俄罗斯人进入欧洲；第三，压制德国。当我们欧洲人允许一个糟糕的架构设计继续崩溃而不采取措施时，他们就会成功。

能否引导欧洲人的民族认同感

去推动从美国获取主权

主持人何婕：好，谢谢。今天我们节目现场还有一位特殊的观众，在前段时间的节目当中大家已经见过他。他之前来做嘉宾，来跟我们讲在他眼中的中国那么多年的生活的变化，他就是来自于加拿大的朋友丹尼尔，他今天是慕名前来做观众进行讨论，对吗？你的问题。

丹尼尔·邓布利尔：Okay, so that was a really interesting talk. Thanks for that. It sounds like America is not a very good friend to Europe. So my question is: is there some way to educate the ordinary people in Europe so that they can perhaps channel some of that nationalism— instead of being directed towards the migrants—towards pushing for sovereignty from the US, which is also a source of a lot of their problems?

好的，节目非常有意思，感谢你分享这些看法。听起来，美国并不是欧洲的好朋友。所以我的问题是，是否有办法让普通欧洲人了解这些情况，从而引导他们的民族主义情绪，而不是针对移民去推动从美国获取主权，因为美国也是他们许多问题的根源？

主持人何婕：好，请坐。

亚尼斯·瓦鲁法基斯：Some of us are trying, Daniel.No, but you know we hit a wall. It's a very thick wall. It's much bigger than the Chinese wall, because this is a wall where you have the convergence, the confidence of a very deep understanding by most Europeans of what you're saying. They understand it. They are not stupid Europeans. They understand everything you said, but common knowledge and common interest do not easily translate into common action to change things. We have in Europe, and this is why politics is now bankrupt in Europe, a magnificent division between public opinion—what people will talk to you about in a taxi, on the street—and what the politicians talk about, what they talk about in television settings. That is the problem.

我们中的一些人正在尝试，丹尼尔。我们遇到了一个大障碍，这个障碍非常棘手，远比长城还要厚。因为它代表着大多数欧洲人对你所说内容的深刻理解和信任。他们明白这一点，他们并不愚蠢。实际上，他们理解你说的所有内容，但普遍的知识和共同利益并不容易转化为改变现状的具体行动。在欧洲，政治如今之所以陷入困境，正是因为公共舆论之间存在着巨大的分歧。人们在出租车上或街上与您交谈的内容与政治家在电视节目中讨论的内容截然不同，这就是问题所在。

How do you convert the general understanding of what you said at the beginning? How do you convert the general understanding of what you said at the beginning?Actually, it doesn't take a radical Marxist economist like me, or you who lives in China, and therefore can be demonized as a stooge. Henry Kissinger said what you said. Remember what he said? That it is a very bad thing to be an enemy of the United States, but it is even worse,it even more dangerous to be a friend of the United States.

如何将你一开始所说的普遍理解转化为行动呢？实际上，这并不需要像我这样激进的马克思主义经济学家，或者像你这样身处中国的人，因为你也会因此被他们“妖魔”化。亨利·基辛格曾说过你所提到的内容。你还记得他说什么吗？他说，成为美国的敌人是一件非常糟糕的事情，但成为美国的朋友更糟，更危险。

张维为：我就补充一点，丹尼尔可以听懂我的中文，我讲得也不快。下个月我还要去欧洲，我想给他们解释一个问题。因为欧洲现在经常在说欧洲是双输、多输，亚洲就是中国加东盟，这是一个双赢，四五十年没有发生战争、和平发展。其中一个最大的差别就是中国和美国作为大国在地区发生作用完全不一样。长话短说，我们和东盟签订自由贸易区的时候，我们的领导人当着很多人的面，跟东盟的领导人说，如果这个协议十年以后，你们觉得不好，我们到时可以再谈。

主持人何婕：今天亚尼斯先生来做客，可能给大家一个非常强烈的感受。在欧洲内部有很多像亚尼斯先生这样的有识之士，他们是在为欧洲、欧盟的前途在深深地担忧，但是可能也有很强的一种无力感。因为不管是从欧洲内部的结构， 还是它朋友的存在，可能对欧洲的这个影响都实在太大了。所以欧洲的未来在哪里，确实是一个值得所有人要关注的问题，不光是欧洲内部自己，也包括我们。因为就像我刚才讲的，欧洲在全世界是一个这么大的存在，欧洲的好它当然对全世界的好是有贡献，那如果欧洲遇到很大的问题，我想全世界也会被这种问题所干扰、所影响，所以这是我们关注欧洲的意义所在，我们将会持续地关注。

（本节目播出于2024年10月28日）