转载说明｜图文来源于 hesign International 和 曹再飞工作室 公众号
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(何见平设计）
一块肉还是一把切肉的刀？
To Be a Piece of Meat or a Meat Cleaver?
曹再飞个展
Solo Exhibition of CAO Zaifei
09/14/2024 - 10/20/2024
柏林视觉艺术中心
Center for Visual Arts Berlin
Unter den Eichen 101 12230 Berlin
侯瀚如与曹再飞对谈
2024年7月11日（Briançon – 上海）
侯：再飛，你从事艺术创作的时间差不多二十年了。今年晚點時候，你會在柏林做個展。这是你第一次在国外做个展吗？
曹：侯老师，我2010年在美国做过一个个展，这次是在欧洲的第一个个展。侯：这一次柏林的展览是在Center for Visual Arts Berlin？曹：这次计划展出近几年的一些绘画，还有一些行为影像视频，因为我的画，看一张两张不容易表達到我要表达的想法，我觉得最好需要二三十张或者三四十张以上，才能更准确的展示出我想要表达的东西。侯：我觉得这个展览有点像一个小型的回顾展，是对你这几年创作的一个总结。侯：这个总结很有意思。是通过这个展览，把你这段时间的工作做一个呈现。那麼你最理想的表达是什么呢？它背后比较理想的一种可能性是什么？当然，到最后实现，效果可能会有点不一样，但是從理想的角度，你觉得在这个时刻，在这个地点，你最想说的什么？曹:我希望通过我的这些作品，觀眾能真切的感受到这就是今天的中国社会。柏林曾经作为冷战时期意识形态的焦点，我作品中的经验感受对这个城市来说应该有似曾相识的记忆。侯：這樣看中國和柏林的聯繫挺有見地。你的作品涉及到一些見證社會變動的课题，可以说有一定的敏感性，但是呢，又不是很直接地去討論一些大题目。而是从一种很实实在在的日常生活的角度，甚至是非常私人生活的角度，去见证这个社会的变化，人們内心的变化。曹：是的，我喜欢用委婉巧妙的方式，就像您说的更私人或者微观政治的方式从日常生活的一些局部、一些细节来看我们所处社会的方方面面。侯：可以说你是一直都在继续用油画的语言來創作。这次展览的主要部分也是油画，你能谈一谈从最早画油画到现在的这些新作品主要的变化嗎？曹：我是90年代中后期读的大学，我们学校那时候的教育环境还比较保守，很少接触到当代艺术，主要学习的还是学院派的那个套路。我那时候慢慢在寻找自己的道路，相对来说比较喜欢简单朴实的绘画，我不属于技术性很好很讨巧的那类学生。一直坚持画一些身边的物，一些和日常生活相关的情景，没有过多地被美术史干扰，主要依靠自己的观察和思考，逐渐清晰了自己的道路。这些年画的很多小尺幅绘画，也是由于对现实有强烈的感受把它记录下来，像一个片段，或者说像一个短剧，一种政治喜剧，也是微型剧场。可能还不属于超现实吧，因为在我们的日常现实中，其实就有荒诞的一面，我抓住了这些不经意的时刻和场景，按照正常的理性思维来看，好像不真实，可现实就是这个样子的。侯：你可以挑出几张对你来说有代表性的作品展开说几句吗？曹：我就随便说一张近期刚完成的气球吧，一只粉红色的气球在空中，周围是干枯的树枝，有一只手用力地向下拉着一根树枝，气球飘起来，如果说他一撒手，树枝就会反弹上去，当然，他也可能拉着树枝让气球飞升。气球在树枝中间有一种紧张感、危机感，而气球本身又轻飘飘的。人物的衣袖是正装，我画里的人物一般都是没有面部的，一只手、一截衣袖、甚至一只脚，或者人物的背面。我画的人物基本都是体制型的，或者说被制度化的人，深色的衣袖里往往都有白衬衫。侯：我看到另外一件作品同样是一個穿着正装的人物的背影，他用手拎着一块肉。上面你谈到氣球形象好像是比较傾向於一種有哲学含义的状态，比较超越的感觉，它的暗示可能没那么直接；但是涉及到肉这样的一个物体的话，是跟人的肉身，人的生存状态發生了直接的联系。曹：我当时画的是一个穿著正装，很体面的中年男人的背影。我们知道正常情况下生肉一般都不会直接用手拿的。而画中人用手握着一条五花肉，感觉有些生猛，有些油腻，并且直接跟生存有关，背景的窗帘是拉上的，有些幽暗的感觉。如果从正面看的话，可能就是个衣冠楚楚很体面的人。侯：这里让我想到很多年前顾德新的作品。在一件作品中，他反覆捏一块肉，直到把它捏干為止。另外一件作品，則直接把肉的腐敗過程展示在公眾面前。顾德新作品中肉的含义就是跟人的生存状态，特别是在中国社会几十年来的生存处境，直接相關的，它有一种性暗示，暴露出身体的感受、生存和欲望；欲望也直接涉及到下一个课题，就是死亡。性、欲望、暴力、死亡和人受压抑的生存状态緊密相連。我想通过你的这块肉也可以引发出很多可能的解读出来，你会倾向于什么角度去解读你自己作品？曹：那幅拎肉的画是有强调欲望的，欲望里面包括您说的肉欲，包括色情和贪婪。还有就是现实中人被压抑的一面。生活中似乎不会出现这种场景，穿着一件正装还有白衬衫在里面，窗帘也是干干净净的，手里却握了一块肉，有一种剧场感。同时也有对现实的绝望，我的很多画面是寂静无声的，像是窒息的真空状态，让人感到无奈又无望，应该是部分的通向死亡。侯：我还看到有一件作品是在一把菜刀上面画了一块肉。这个很有意思，这个系列都是在厨具上画的，同时你还在家里窗台前读诗。曹：这一系列厨具上的绘画是2022年春天疫情上海封控期间画的，那段时间不能出门，画布用完了，在网上买菜又很困难，干脆就在厨具上画画吧。因为疫情封控不能去人民公园读诗，所以就在家里窗台前每天读一首诗，然后发网上。因为那个时候不能出门，就在厨具上画窗外的风景，画天空，锅本来是用来烧菜做饭的，就在锅里画窗外的景色，那时候正好是春天，窗外的蓝天白云特别美好，可是不能出去，我就画下来，就在菜板上和炒锅里画风景，在汤锅和煎锅里画天空，在菜刀上画五花肉，在锅铲上画一朵云......侯：这个非常有意義，可以把我们带到下一个话题上去。你用了一个非常日常的，甚至很现实主义的，很当下的场景来画一些从语言上好像有点超现实主义，甚至有点像马格利特这样一种方式来处理的圖像，但实际上你讲的是一个实实在在的，很现实的一种状态，跟马格利特的哲学性的暗示非常不一样。你是把超现实主义哲学性的作品演化为日常生活的作品，这其实是很现实主义的一种创作方式。曹：超现实主义尤其是马格利特对我的艺术是有影响的，也包括形而上绘画的德·基里科和后来的美国画家马克·坦西，其实他们都对我有过影响，马格利特是一位典型的超现实主义画家，他的绘画主要是通向哲学的，受到他形象和语义即词与物的关系的影响，还有图像之间互文的影响。但我更多的还是关注当下的感受，或者说对现实的切身体验，我其实是把超现实的那套东西拉回到当下的中国社会现场，比如马格利特也画了很多正装男人，一看就属于当时欧洲的中产阶级绅士，而我画的正装男人，看上去总会联想到这个时代的村干部。我画中的人物往往都有这个时代的某些特征，他们有些憨厚，有些土，同时他们也有可能蛮横、自大、无知等，每个人都被所处的系统拿捏，同时又去拿捏别人。我的绘画应该也不属于过去的那种现实主义，可能还是属于在超现实和现实之间的那一小段，指向的当然是我们当下的现实。我有的画画过没过多久，和画面类似的事件就发生了。有朋友就说我的画像是预言，其实对生活的感受准确的表达出来，之后现实中发生的类似画面感的事情都是情理之中的，似乎总会发生。《无题》60x70cm 布面油画 2020（收藏于悉尼白兔美术馆）侯：这种现实性是很个人的一种感受，但是这种个人感受也表達了在中国當下的艺术家里面存在一种共通的敏感性。很多人都生活在同樣的状态中，有类似的感受和反思。同时，这几年绘画製作又很活跃。藝術圈裡有大量的绘画的制作，而且很多作品也都是很具象的，同时又用一种超现实的方式来处理这种对现实的感受和反思。我们可以见到你这一代艺术家，甚至更年轻的一些艺术家，之間有一定的可比性。另外，你的作品尺寸都不大，基本控制在某一种尺寸里面，都是50×50cm左右的这样一种尺寸，那么你是怎么去选择这个尺寸的呢？同時作品之間也形成了一種系列的結構。系列性是否更有表達的力量？曹：对共享同一时代环境下的艺术家来说，有共通的感受和思考是合乎情理的，今天的绘画现象是值得讨论的话题，当然我想每位艺术家的表达方式会有些差异。我的画主要是针对事物的局部，就像寓言小故事，不需要长篇幅的方式来表达，还有我们茶余饭后的一个个段子，像是情境短剧，所以我觉得用小尺幅就完全可以传达出来了，它应该是以数量见长，很多张画放在一起，一看就明白我想说的了，如果只是一两张未必看得出怎么回事，短剧就需要好多集。我就不停的记录当下的感受，正如我们小时候看的那些成语故事，可能就一两百字，虽简单浅显，但道理很深刻，还幽默好玩，我喜欢这样的表达方式。曹：如果有关系的话，他们都属于这个时代的焦点问题。其实我自己不写诗的，以前上学的时候写过一点，觉得太业余了后来就不写了。我读诗主要强调读诗的动作行为，就是行为本身，把诗歌带到人口稠密的社会现场，来考验公共场域对读诗的反应。 在上海人民公园相亲角朗读爱情诗（2019-2024）侯：本來，你的工作是可以在自己的画室里面完成的。你把读诗这个行为带到公共场合，有很多车流交通工具经过的马路上，甚至高速公路上，然后再带到公园这个场景，而且公园的场景，你选择的也是一个非常特別的地点，就是相亲的地方。按你的说法，相亲的地方是最没有爱情的。爱情在這裡变成一种交易，人被物化被商品化了。人和人之间的关系，甚至一种很私密的关系被物化了，和你要念的那種充满了理想的爱情，诗歌中的爱情產生了強烈对比。很多读者、很多评论家都了解这一点。从这个角度来说，你是怎么去更加强化這種對比，把读诗这个动作以及内容，和你对社会观察的这种关系，更加強烈地展示出来的？曹：我到相亲角看了之后感受很强烈，也很刺激，就想做一件作品和这个现场发生关系，对我来说读诗可能是最合适的一种方式，并且有很强的肉身体验感。大家都在讨价还价似地给子女相亲，按物质条件来对一对，房、车、收入都是明码标价的，我在那个地方读经典浪漫的爱情诗，都是人们很熟知的诗人，比如叶芝、拜伦、普希金、徐志摩、顾城、舒婷等人的诗歌。就是在那个现场读显得特冲突荒诞，越是真诚那种张力就越强。可能他們也覺得我很傻，觉得我这个人脑子坏掉了，受刺激了。同时我站在那里读诗，也是对这个时代的嘲讽，起码是对那个环境的极大讽刺。蹲在在马路中间水泥隔离墩顶面上用粉笔写日记（2017）侯：我不知道你是否了解在公共场所读诗有一个很长的传统，古罗马时代，普通人有不满的话，他们就会在罗马某一个地方进行公共表达，在一个街道角落或一个雕像前面贴上他们的感受、批判或诉求，比如有名的Pasquino雕像。伦敦海德公园有著名的演讲角（Speakers’Corner）。這個傳統在中国也有，比如1976年一批年轻的诗人、艺术家在XXX廣場读诗，悼念周恩來总理，他們读出了一代人的訴求，進而引發了改革開放的歷史轉變。这个传统不知道对于你来说是不是有一定的影响？曹：您刚才说的，我大概也了解一些，在这里公开表达还是有些敏感的，在欧美，如果在公共场所站的高一点演讲或朗读，要么是有ZZ诉求，要么就是宣教士。因为我在相亲角读的是爱情诗，和那个环境很合，管理人员看到我读的都是正规出版的经典爱情诗集，也没有违反什么，就不再干预了。这件行为作品也是试探个体在公共空间的权利边界，尽可能拓展这个边界，在那里读诗一次两次是没什么效果的，它需要坚持，读着读着就慢慢的合法化了。几年下来得到越来越多的年轻人积极响应。侯：读诗这个动作有一种即时性，如果长期下去，你怎么去继续呢？曹：现场的相亲父母们对我在那读诗是不感兴趣的，有好多年轻人觉得在那里读诗这个动作很酷，一些路过的游客也很好奇，现在有很多年轻人会在网上通过各种渠道联系我，问我什么时候去读诗并想一起去参与，我想等读诗产生更多影响的时候，我就慢慢退出了，年轻人如果有兴趣，他们自己去那里读就可以了。侯：這個行為無疑有著強烈的社会批判性。这种批判性实际上针对的不一定是自上而下的压制，可能更多的是跟社会价值观的变化有关系，比如说爱情变成了商品，亦或人和人关系变成了一种买卖。你肯定不是第一个站出来说这个事情的，但是你用了一种特别有意思的方式来向我们展示了这样一种批判的必要性。那你如何看待现在这个媒体泛滥，网络媒体主導傳播的时代對你的行為的影響呢？曹：我认为网络传播对我这件行为很重要，除了现场肉身传播，更多的还是依靠互联网传播，从微信朋友圈、小视频粉丝到主流媒体的报道，越来越多的人知道了这件事，尤其生活在网络时代的年轻人他们的了解参与也都是网络的原因。曹：我一直在寻找一条可以表达的缝隙吧，觉得艺术家没必要直接闯红线，但完全在绿色安全区创作又显得有些苟且，找到那条黄线并且尽可能的拓宽那条黄线，也是让人们看到社会存在的某些问题。如果年轻人去得多了，管理人员就會很紧张，就想尽一切办法来驱赶。还有把诗带到这个公共现场的时候，有一种感受就是艺术和诗歌在今天的当下是不被看重的，是无力的，感觉被这个社会抛弃了。侯：你觉得这是无力的，但实际上它还是有相当大的力量的，这种力量在於，在受严格管控的公共场合里面，你开拓了一个相对自由的小公共空间，通过念诗，通过一种好像与现实无关的，很浪漫的想象来开拓某一种公共领域。它有一定的即时性，有一定的临时发起的性质，但同时它又慢慢地在形成了某一个固定的一个区域。人家知道可能你某一天就要到这里来读诗，有一定的规律，那么这种规律又形成了这种临时公共空间的某一种稳定性，我觉得这个就很有意義。曹：相亲角都是周末和节假日开放的，平时周一到周五（工作日）就是普通的正常公园，我周末节假日在那站著读诗的时候就變成了一个临时性的，可以发声的雕塑。我读诗的位置是个小广场，现在大家都默认那是一个爱情诗的广场。他本来是纯相亲的地方，现在变成了读诗的小广场。侯：这又让我想到你早期的乡村教堂研究的作品，你怎么会决定去做这件事情？怎么从一个学艺术的学生变成一个研究宗教哲学的研究生？ 我想应该是在这个背景下你去做的研究吧。曹：我平时喜欢读书和思考，考研就选择了哲学宗教学专业，我读的南京大学佛教研究在国内很有影响，那个时候我认为佛教在中国的研究早已很成熟了，我就注意到了家乡附近好多乡村教堂。其实我很小的时候就看到过它们，觉得造型很奇怪，既不是传统民居也不像其他的公共建筑，在中原地区的农村主要有四个公共空间：村委会、村医院（卫生所）、小学，还有就是教堂。寺庙和道观反而很少，但一般都会有教堂，都是改革开放之后（1979年宗教解禁）村民们自己建造的。我觉得特别有意义，就去考察做了一些文献，主要以记录为主，那个时候他们自建的教堂很简陋，因为经济条件所限，还有就是他们也没见过正规西式的大教堂。后来很多教堂都拆了，我的作品就相当于一份保存的文献了。侯：你當時做的不仅是记录性的工作，比如说拍录像、照片等等，当然这个照片本身也是有从艺术的考虑去拍摄的；同时，你也做了一些实实在在的雕塑作品,包括教堂的模型，还有帐篷，同時也有一定的表演性，你能不能再描述一下。最后的晚餐 2004-2008 （收藏于美国泰勒大学梅特卡夫博物馆）曹：我用了五年时间考察了安徽宿州地区的六百多座乡村教堂，其实差不多算是普查。在中国经济大发展过程中对社会底层的关注，作为艺术家选择了用影像、装置、雕塑等作品形式呈现，其实当时也有一些笔记、速写、表格档案和各种手稿资料。包括一些可移动的帐篷。您说的剧场演出其实是在圣诞节、复活节和过中国新年的时候教会都有一些文艺演出，把过去的民俗娱乐内容置换成圣经故事，它的元素半土不洋，我们经常说东方主义是西方人对东方的想象，那么中国乡村教堂就是中国农民对西方的想象。欧洲的哥特式神圣崇高的大教堂到了中国民间变成了很草根的样子，他们把乡土的元素、传统的元素和基督教元素混杂在一起，同时把当时当地的一些流行元素都放置其中，各种元素的叠加，他们觉得这样最美，因此空间也有一种剧场感。乡村教堂在中国现实中存在的确有点荒诞，但又很真实，看了它的空间和信徒的处境之后都会产生悲悯和感动吧。中国乡村教堂之内景 拍摄于2004—2008（收藏于美国加尔文大学美术馆） 侯：这个我觉得和你念诗有一种联系。在这種特殊的乡村环境里面，教堂不能说很临时，但相对来说也是比较临时的，因为它随时可能要被拆掉；这样一个共同聚会的空间，也是一种相对独立的公共空间，从主流的社会或者意识形态中独立出来的一种精神空间。有时甚至不一定每个信徒都真正了解基督教是什么一种情况，但是他借着这样的一种宗教信仰和共同参与形成與某种共同体的联系，这种维系所形成的共同体实际上也是公共空间作为一个市民空间存在的表达。所以，我觉得从某一种角度上来说，跨过十几年的时间，你直接或者不直接地把这两个计划联系起来，形成某一种有机的体系。曹：我不太关注那些流行消费的视觉形式，我觉得在目前的中国有很多现实问题尚未解决，更多的关注现实和精神性的部分，关注具体生存感受和生命体验。乡村教堂对农村的信徒来说那就是他的精神依托，是神圣空间，虽然和官方的主流价值有一些不同，但在一定范围内也是被允许存在的，就形成了中国社会比较独特的一种空间或者景观。我在上海人民公园相亲角读诗也是试图创造一个精神空间，也是在一定范围内被允许存在的，都有证道的成分。和早期的教堂艺术相比，可能读诗多了些幽默和反讽。侯：除了柏林的这个展览计划之外，你下一步还有什么新的计划？你觉得你的创作会向什么样的方向去发展？曹：我想以后会一直沿着这条线索走下去，在我看来艺术家还是应该按照自己最真实感受来进行工作，今天的紧张程度其实远超二十年前，我觉得值得记录和表达。侯：你的作品让我想到我们或是在把自己变成被拿捏的一块肉，或是成為切肉的那把刀。我們在这两种命运之间挣扎。在这种几乎没有希望的状态下，你的作品似乎同時暗示著希望和絕望！侯瀚如是一位活跃的艺术评论家、作家和策展人，常驻巴黎和罗马。他曾担任罗马国立21世纪艺术博物馆(MAXXI)的艺术总监（2013-2022）。他在全球策划了超过150场展览，包括约翰内斯堡、威尼斯、上海、光州、广州、地拉那、伊斯坦布尔、里昂、奥克兰等多地的双年展和三年展。1997年至1999年间，他与汉斯·乌尔里希·奥布里斯特(Hans Ulrich Obrist)共同策划了“运动中的城市”展览，该展览从维也纳的分离派展览馆巡展至波尔多的CAPC/Arc-en-Rêve美术馆、纽约现代艺术博物馆PS1、丹麦胡姆勒拜克的路易斯安那现代艺术博物馆、伦敦的海沃德美术馆、曼谷城市、赫尔辛基的奇亚斯玛艺术博物馆。他在众多文化机构担任顾问，包括广州时代美术馆、上海外滩美术馆、纽约古根海姆美术馆。他经常为各种当代艺术与文化杂志撰稿，并在众多国际机构演讲和任教。他的著作包括《侯瀚如》（Utopia@Asialink和墨尔本大学文化与传播学院，2014年）、《在中间地带》（英文版于2002年由香港东八时区出版，中文版于2013年由北京金城出版社出版）、《策展的挑战》（侯瀚如与汉斯·乌尔里希·奥布里斯特的通信,“策展人在路上”，发表于日本《Art-It》杂志，2006-2012年，中文版由北京金城出版社于2013年出版）。A conversation between HOU Hanru and CAO Zaifei
11 July 2024 (Briançon - Shanghai)
H: Zai Fei, you’ve been an artistic creator for almost two decades. You’ll be hosting a solo exhibition in Berlin later this year. Is this going to be your first solo show overseas?C: I did one in the US in 2010, Mr. Hou, so this would be my first in Europe.H: Where was your exhibition in the US?C: The Purdue University Art Museum.H: You’ll be showcasing your work in Jumping He’s gallery this time?H: Did you curate your exhibition this time according to the layout of He’s space?C: This exhibition primarily features my paintings from the past few years, alongside videos documenting my performance art. To truly grasp the essence of my paintings, it is essential to immerse yourself in a few dozen pieces. Viewing just one or two will not suffice.H: So it functions as a retrospective, summarizing the body of work you've created in recent years.H: This appears to be a captivating summary of your work. What are you aiming to convey through this exhibition? What is the most essential message you wish to impart to the audience? While the final presentation might differ from your initial vision, I'm curious to know, in this specific context and setting, what are you striving to communicate?C: My works aim to document Chinese society, particularly my personal reflections on the various issues and events that have unfolded in China in recent years. Berlin, once a battleground of opposing ideologies, might find a sense of déjà vu in the emotions captured in my art.![]()
曹再飞、Heinz-Norbert Jocks、何见平
H: That's a fascinating observation about the potential connection between China and Berlin. Your works address significant changes in Chinese society, often considered sensitive topics. Rather than confronting these issues directly, you approach them from a different perspective, one deeply rooted in daily and personal life. This subtle approach effectively reflects the broader societal shifts and the evolving mindsets of people.C: Yes, that’s my approach. I don’t shy away from sensitive topics, but I tread on the line, using subtle expressions ones that involve a more personal, closer-to-the-ground perspective, to see different aspects of our society.H: You studied oil painting in Nanjing and received a conventional education in academic art, correct?C: That’s right. I received a bachelor’s degree in oil painting from the Nanjing University of the Arts.H: You’ve consistently used oil painting as your primary medium, and this exhibition will predominantly feature your oil paintings as well. Can you talk about how your oil paintings have changed from then to now?C: When I was in university during the late 1990s, the curriculum was quite conservative, with limited exposure to modern art. We mainly concentrated on traditional academic techniques. Even then, I was already exploring my own path. I was never the most technically proficient, but I gravitated towards creating simpler, more grounded works. I drew inspiration from everyday scenes and objects, relying on my own observations and thoughts rather than the established conventions of oil painting. This approach helped me discover my unique artistic voice.In recent years, I've created many small-scale paintings that resemble miniature scenes, short plays, or brief political satires, often driven by my intense feelings about real-life events. My works might not be classified as surrealism because the reality I depict is already absurd. I aim to capture these fleeting moments. They may appear counterintuitively unrealistic, but in truth, I am portraying reality as it is.
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The artist read poetry at the exhibition opening
H: Could you discuss a few of your most iconic works?C: I will talk about one of my recent paintings, which depicts a balloon floating past a tangle of dried, pointy tree branches. A hand is holding one branch, pulling it downwards. If the hand lets go, the branch will snap up and hit the balloon. However, the hand may also be holding the branch to allow the balloon space to float. The juxtaposition of the light, defenseless balloon in such a treacherous setting creates a sense of tension and danger. The hand belongs to a person wearing a suit. In my paintings, I often don’t show people’s faces—there’s only a hand, a foot, a sleeve, or a figure with its back turned. These individuals are often dressed in white shirts and dark outfits, representing people who work in the public sector and have become institutionalized.H: Another painting I saw depicts a person in a suit, turned away from the viewer, holding a piece of raw fatty pork. The balloon in the painting you mentioned conveyed an abstract philosophical idea, subtle and indirect in its implications. In contrast, the figure with the meat is more directly connected to our everyday lives and physical existence.C: Yes, in the painting, the middle-aged man wears a sharp-looking suit. Normally, people wouldn't hold a piece of raw, greasy meat bare-handed like that. The imagery indeed evokes themes of life and survival. The backdrop of closed curtains adds a sense of something shady and dubious. Yet, from the front, you can imagine the man appearing as a decent, well-dressed, respectable individual.H: This brings to mind Gu Dexin’s performance art from years ago, where he would squeeze a piece of meat with his bare hands until it was wrung dry, or his installation consisting of a pile of rotting meat. These works, featuring meat, symbolize the pervasive sense of decay and the unhealthy ways in which people have had to navigate life in Chinese society over the past few decades. Meat, in these contexts, also alludes to sex, physical sensations, the drive to survive, and carnal desires, all naturally intertwined with the theme of death. The interplay of sex, desire, violence, death, and societal repression is deeply connected. Similarly, your painting of a person holding meat carries a multitude of potential meanings. How would you interpret it?
Installation view
C: It indeed emphasizes the idea of desire, encompassing both carnal urges and greed. It also mirrors the repression people face in reality. In real life, the sight of a man impeccably dressed in a suit and white shirt, standing before pristine curtains while holding a piece of raw meat, might seem improbable. This dramatic imagery conveys a sense of despair about reality. Many of my paintings exude a “silent” quality, evoking a sense of suffocation that leaves the viewer feeling hopeless and helpless. In a way, it seems like a subtle prelude to death.H: Another one of your paintings is rendered on a meat cleaver: a piece of fatty meat depicted on the blade. It's incredibly refreshing. In this series, you painted on various pieces of kitchenware and also performed a piece where you read poetry aloud in front of your home window.C: My painted kitchenware series was created in the spring of 2022, during the lockdown in Shanghai. Unable to go out and having run out of canvas, I turned to my kitchen utensils as my new canvases, especially since it was difficult to buy groceries online and there was nothing to cook. Because of the lockdown, I couldn’t go to People’s Park to read poetry aloud, so I read at home in front of a window and posted the videos online. It was spring, and the weather outside was beautiful, but I was confined indoors. To capture the beauty of nature I couldn't experience firsthand, I painted scenes of nature on kitchenware. I depicted landscapes and skies on pots and chopping boards, the sky in a soup pot and frying pan, a piece of pork on a meat cleaver, and a cloud on a spatula.H: I find these works quite meaningful and they lead me to the next topic I'd like to discuss with you. You use everyday, real-life scenes to create images that convey somewhat surreal messages, reminiscent of René Magritte. While Magritte conveyed philosophical undertones in his work, you address themes that are closely tied to reality. You've put a unique twist on the surreal, philosophical style, grounding it in real-life experiences. In a way, this approach represents a form of realism.![]()
C: Surrealism, especially the works of René Magritte, has significantly influenced my art, along with the metaphysical paintings of Giorgio de Chirico and American artist Mark Tansey. Each of these artists has left a mark on my artistic journey. René Magritte, an iconic surrealist painter, created works that primarily lead to philosophical inquiries. His art explores the intricate relationship between images and semantics—between words and objects—and the intertextual connections among images. I like to focus on the feelings of reality in the here and now, adapting Western surrealism to the context of Chinese society. Magritte often painted men in suits who clearly belonged to the European middle class. In contrast, the men in suits I paint evoke Chinese village officials of our era, marked by their time. They can be rustic and simple-minded, but also domineering, conniving, and cowardly. They can be arrogant, ignorant, and foolish. They are both victims of their era and perpetrators of victimization. My paintings don't fit traditional realism, likely existing somewhere between realism and surrealism. If they possess any realism, it is tied to the reality we live in. There have been instances where scenes similar to those I depicted on canvas later happened in real life. Some friends say my paintings are like prophecies. But if you accurately depict what you observe in real life, it stands to reason that these depictions will be reflected in future events.H: While viewers might feel that your works are closely tied to reality, it also suggests that many artists in China today are picking up on the same signs. Living under similar circumstances, they experience similar emotions and reflections. In recent years, the painting scene in China has been quite active, with many new works being created. These works often use surreal approaches to convey feelings and reflections on reality, despite not being strictly abstract. This common thread runs through your generation of artists and even younger ones.Another thing I want to ask is about the size of your works. Most of your pieces are around 50 x 50 cm. Why did you choose this dimension? Does having a uniform size for all the works in a series make the series more impactful?C: It's natural for artists living in the same era to share similar feelings and reflections. The current trend in China's painting circles is certainly deserving of deeper discussion, even though each artist has their unique mode of expression. I prefer to focus on the “smaller picture” rather than the grand panorama in my paintings. They are akin to short fables, mini sketches, or the anecdotes we share with friends. A small canvas is perfectly suited for this purpose. However, to fully convey my message, I need to create numerous small paintings that form a cohesive series. When viewed together, they reveal a more comprehensive narrative. Observing just one or two pieces won't provide the full context, much like watching a single episode of a TV series. These small paintings continually record my reflections on reality. They are inspired by four-character Chinese idioms, each encapsulating a brief story with a meaningful, often humorous message. I find this form of expression particularly compelling.
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H: Does this link to your interest in poetry?C: In a way, both my public readings of poetry and my paintings address the pressing issues of our time. While I don't write poetry myself—I dabbled in it during school but stopped after realizing I could not do it professionally—I focus on the act of reading poetry aloud in public spaces. This allows me to gauge society's reaction to such an act.H: You could have recorded your performance art in the privacy of your own studio. Yet, you chose to read poetry in public places, such as busy roads or even highways, and notably, Shanghai’s People’s Park. This park is home to a “marriage market” where parents exchange information about their unmarried children to help them find matches. You have remarked that in such a market, love is absent, individuals are objectified and commodified, and marriage is reduced to a mere transaction. Interpersonal relationships, which should be private, are objectified in this context. This starkly contrasts with the ideal, passionate love in the poetry you read. Many artists and observers familiar with your performance art are aware of this context. How do you amplify the contrast between your act of reading poetry aloud and your critique of the current state of the “marriage market”?C: After witnessing the “marriage market”, I was deeply shaken and felt compelled to create art about it. I chose to read poetry aloud as the most impactful and immersive way to address this issue. At the market, parents “bargain” for their unmarried children, using home ownership, car ownership, and income to assign value to their children and others’. I read classic love poetry by well-known poets such as William Butler Yeats, Lord Byron, Alexander Pushkin, Xu Zhimo, Gu Cheng, and Shu Ting. The more passionately I read, the greater the contrast became. The parents likely thought I was foolish or driven mad by trauma. My act of reading is, in fact, an expression of irony towards our times and a critique of the existence of the “marriage market”.
Installation view
H: Are you aware of the rich tradition of public expression throughout history? In ancient Rome, dissatisfied citizens would write their grievances and attach anonymous notes to one of the “talking statues” in the city, the most famous being Pasquino. In London, the famous Speakers’ Corner in Hyde Park serves as a platform for free speech. In China, following Premier Zhou Enlai’s death in 1976, young artists and poets gathered at Tiananmen Square to read poems with political demands. This event sparked the creation of the Democracy Wall on Beijing’s Xidan Street, which was particularly active in 1978 and 1979 and played a significant role in propelling China’s Reform and Opening Up. Have these historical events influenced your work?C: I’m somewhat familiar with these historical precedents. In China, public expression is still a very sensitive and risky endeavor. In the West, standing on a soapbox in a public place typically means voicing political opinions or evangelizing. At the “marriage market”, I chose to read love poems, which in a way, suited the environment perfectly. The park managers, upon realizing that I was merely reading from poetry books permitted for publication, did not interfere since I wasn’t violating any regulations. My performance art was about exploring and pushing the boundaries of personal rights in public spaces. Reading poetry there just once or twice wouldn’t have been meaningful; persistence was essential. Over time, my performance became “legitimized”, and after several years, it started to receive positive responses from more and more young people.H: The act of reading poetry is transient in nature. How do you plan to give it more permanence over the long term?C: The parents at the “marriage market” are generally uninterested in my performance art, but many young people find it cool, and passing tourists often get curious. Some have reached out to me online, asking when I will next be at the park and if they can join. As this movement gains traction and more young people participate, I will eventually be able to step back and let them carry on the act.
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H: This piece of performance art is undoubtedly a critical commentary on the social issue you are addressing. Instead of political repression, it highlights the changing values in Chinese society, where “love” has become commodified and interpersonal relationships have taken on a transactional nature. While others may have expressed similar ideas, your approach is particularly compelling and serves as a reminder of the necessity of maintaining a critical perspective. Given the pervasive influence of social media and influencers shaping public opinion, how do you think this environment affects your performance art?C: Online media has played a crucial role in increasing the visibility of my performance art. The internet is far more effective than relying solely on in-person encounters to spread awareness of my work. Through social media, short-video platforms, and mainstream media coverage, more and more people have discovered my act. Notably, it was through the internet that young, tech-savvy individuals found out about my performance and felt inspired to join.H: Could you speak more about the critical commentary nature of your act?C: I am always trying to find a good space for expression. While I don't believe it is necessary for artists to directly confront censorship, it feels limiting to always stay entirely within safe boundaries. I aim to explore the blurry boundary between these areas and expand it, so people can become more aware of societal issues. I wouldn't want too many young people congregating at the park, as the park managers might see it as a protest and try to disperse it. Additionally, while engaging in this public act, I often felt that poetry and art are intentionally neglected and abandoned by today's society, leaving them very powerless.H: It might seem like art and poetry lack power these days, but they actually possess significant influence. Artists like you can carve out small public spaces that offer more freedom within a heavily censored environment. Your act of reading poetry may not appear to directly target societal issues; it seems romantic, transient, and impromptu. However, over time, it has become a relatively fixed event, with people knowing when and where to find you. This consistency gives the small public space you carve out a sense of permanence, which I find meaningful.C: The “marriage market” is only active on weekends and holidays. From Monday to Friday, it’s just a regular park space. When I perform there on weekends and holidays, I become a temporary “talking statue”. The area where I perform is a small square. While people used to think of it as the “marriage market” square, they now see it as the little poetry square.H: This reminds me of your earlier work researching rural churches in China. What compelled you to undertake such a project? How did you transition from an art student to a graduate student researching the philosophy of religion? Was it within the context of the philosophy of religion that you conducted your research?![]()
C: I have always enjoyed reading and thinking, so I applied for a master’s degree in philosophy of religion. At Nanjing University, my program, Buddhist studies, is particularly influential in academia. I realized that Buddhist studies in China were already highly developed, so I began to direct my attention to the rural churches near my hometown. I had seen them since I was a child and always thought their design was peculiar. They were neither traditional Chinese dwellings nor typical public buildings. In the rural areas of central China, there are four types of public spaces: the village committee, the village hospital, the elementary school, and the church. There are very few Buddhist and Taoist temples, but there is usually a church, most of which were built after 1979 when restrictions on religious activities were lifted following China's reform and opening up. I found these churches fascinating, so I conducted studies and wrote papers to document what I had observed. The churches built by villagers were very simple, with small budgets and no reference to European churches, which is why they looked as they did. Many of these churches were later demolished, so my papers became a means of preserving their existence in records.H: In addition to photographing and making videos to document these rural churches, you also sculpted models of them and designed tents incorporating Christian elements. You witnessed performances put on by the local congregations. Could you speak more about them?C: I spent five years visiting over six hundred rural churches in Suzhou, Anhui Province. It was a comprehensive study. As an artist aiming to reflect the lower classes of society amidst China's rapid economic growth, I chose to use photos, installations, and sculptures as my mediums of expression. Naturally, I also took notes, made sketches, compiled graphs, and produced various manuscripts. Additionally, I designed movable tents for my work.The performances you referred to were held during Christmas, Easter, and Chinese New Year. Instead of engaging in traditional folk activities, the villagers enacted Bible stories. These performances were a unique blend, neither entirely Chinese nor wholly Western in style. While Orientalism is often described as Westerners' imagination of the East, these Chinese rural churches showcase how the villagers imagine the West. In contrast to Europe's majestic Gothic churches, the churches in Chinese communities are much humbler, incorporating local styles, traditional Chinese elements, aspects of Christianity, and even local popular culture. The villagers believe their creations to be the most beautiful. The resulting spaces naturally have a theatrical look.The existence of rural churches in China may seem out of place, but they are very real. Anyone who sees them and understands the plight of the faithful cannot help but feel moved and a sense of pity.H: Your study of Chinese rural churches seems to be intrinsically connected to your poetry reading performances. In China, given the current climate, churches are often ordered for demolition, making them temporary and transitory, much like your acts of public expression. A church is a sanctuary where the faithful congregate, distinct from other public spaces and separate from mainstream Chinese society and its prevailing political landscape. Not all believers fully grasp the tenets of Christianity, but they rely on this religion to feel part of a community, expressing their existence as citizens in a public space. Despite being a decade apart, these two projects are interwoven, forming an organic whole.C: I don’t follow trends in popular visual art aimed at ordinary consumption. In China, many pressing issues need to be addressed. I want to focus on reality and spirituality, on people’s lived experiences. For the rural faithful, the church serves as their spiritual home, their sacred space. Even though religious values often conflict with the government's mainstream values, Christianity is still permitted to some extent, creating a unique space within Chinese society. Similarly, my poetry readings at the "marriage market" in Shanghai are about creating a spiritual refuge, which the authorities grudgingly allow. Both rural religion and my performance art seek some form of truth, though my act incorporates humor and parody.H: Other than the solo exhibition in Berlin, what plans do you have for the future? What would your future artistic direction be?C: I will continue to do what I do. As an artist, I believe in expressing my most genuine feelings. Today's society is far more stressed than it was twenty years ago. This heightened tension is something that deserves to be recorded and expressed through art.H: Your work compels us to reflect on the difficult choice between being a piece of meat, passively handled by others, or becoming the meat cleaver. We struggle between these two stark options. In such a bleak landscape, your works convey both a sense of despair and a glimmer of hope on the horizon.
