张移北
请脱钢盔
Yibei Zhang
Please No Helmet
展期 Dates
2024.09.11–2024.10.25
策展人 陈嘉莹博士
Curated by Dr. Jenny Jiaying Chen
对谈人：柏颖婷（精神分析师、法语译者、自由学者）、陈嘉莹（策展人）、张移北（艺术家）Participants: Yingting BAI (Psychoanalyst, French Translator, Freelance Scholar), Jenny Jiaying Chen (Curator), Yibei Zhang (Artist)
Hereinafter referred to as: BAI, Jenny, Yibei
防御变奏曲：
动物形态与精神分析的美学耦合
Variations on Defense:
Aesthetic Coupling of Animal Forms and Psychoanalysis
视频为对谈精简版，完整内容请见下文
（内容回顾）
(Recap)
陈：今天我们进行的是移北在Longlati的个展《请脱钢盔》的展前录播，今天我们很高兴请到嘉宾小柏。首先请小柏自我介绍，然后我将简要介绍展览的基本情况。Jenny: Today is a pre-recorded session for Yibei's solo exhibition in Longlati this September. We are also pleased to have our guest, Yingting BAI. First, please introduce yourself, and then I will briefly introduce some basic information about our exhibition.柏：大家好，我是小柏。我是一名精神分析师、法语译者和自由学者，我的播客名为《例外状态》。BAI: Hello everyone, I’m Yingting BAI. I am a psychoanalyst, a French translator, and a freelance scholar. My podcast is called "State of Exception."陈：本次展览是移北在Longlati一年的驻留项目成果展，展览将在我们身后的SUHE HAUS四楼的小展厅举行。移北将呈现一个整体的互动项目，所有作品均为新作。移北还对整体结构进行了特殊设置，强调了互动体验的反馈机制。接下来我们可以请移北简要分享一些创作过程中的想法，因为作品仍在制作中。Jenny: This exhibition results from Yibei's one-year residency program at Longlati. It will be held in the small exhibition hall behind us, on the fourth floor of SUHE HAUS. Yibei will present an overall interactive project, and all the work will be new. Yibei has also made special arrangements for this exhibition, emphasising an interactive, experiential feedback setup. We can let Yibei briefly share her thoughts during the process since the works are still in production.张：本次展览的主题围绕我这一年所关注的心理学防御机制。大部分作品为雕塑，观众进入时会体验到一种从初级防御状态到相对舒适空间的动线。Yibei: The central theme of this exhibition is an issue I have been very interested in this year: the psychological concept of defence mechanisms. Most of the works are sculptures. When one enters, a pathway may resemble a primary defence leading into a relatively comfortable space.陈：本次展览的标题为《请脱钢盔》，我们的对谈题目为《防御变奏曲：动物形态与精神分析的美学耦合》。这个标题源自于一个初始的指示牌，"钢盔"作为保护头部的饰品，在此次作品中有着特殊的意义，同时延续了之前海洋生物形态的系列。关于心理防御机制，我们讨论了这些机制如何与动物形态特征相关，并在社会中表现出来。移北，你能介绍一下“请脱钢盔”指示牌的来源及其历史吗？Jenny: This exhibition is named "Please No Helmet," our discussion is titled "Variations on Defense: Aesthetic Coupling of Animal Forms and Psychoanalysis." This is based on information from the initial sign. The "helmet" serves as a protective adornment to prevent head injuries and is also significant in this series of works, continuing the previous series on marine life forms. You mentioned psychological defence mechanisms, and we previously discussed the relationship between these mechanisms and characteristics of animal forms, as well as how they manifest in human society. Could you also introduce the origin and story of the "Please No Helmet" sign?张：这个指示牌是我在马来西亚槟城的一家商店看到的，贴在门口并出售，起到一种警示作用。它旨在防止穿着帽子或带有兜帽的人进入商场进行盗窃，体现了一种“防君子不防小人”的理念。我觉得这个很有意思，于是买下贴在我的工作室。去年我搬走工作室时，正好这是一个很好的契机。与此同时，我一直在研究心理学，觉得这个标语代表了一种开放或放下防御的状态，因此我认为这个名字非常合适。Yibei: I saw this sign at a store in Penang, Malaysia. It was put up and sold there, acting as a warning. It prevents people who might enter the mall wearing a hoodie and hat from committing theft. It reflects a "(Locks are) for honest people, not for thieves" mentality. I found it quite interesting and bought it to put in my studio. Last year, when I moved my studio, it was a good opportunity. I have also been studying psychology, and I felt it represented a state of opening up or lowering defences, which I thought was a fitting name.陈：我们提到“请脱钢盔”与许多公共环境下的指示有关，涉及公众对防御的理解。我们讨论过的“防君子不防小人”的特性也在其中。小柏，您能进一步介绍相关的精神分析理论吗？Jenny: We mentioned that "Please No Helmet" relates to many public signs involving public understanding of the defence. It has a previously discussed characteristic: "(Locks are) for honest people, not for thieves." BAI, you previously introduced some related psychoanalytic theories. Could you elaborate?柏：这个指示牌实际上是一种符号性禁令，它并不能真正防御那些有攻击意图的人。我更关注的是这个符号对贴出指示牌的商店主人的作用。在巴黎圣安娜医院精神科工作时，我有时会遇到有咨询者们在火车上经历恐慌发作。在这种情况下，医生可能会询问他是否有“抗恐惧症的客体”，即我们所称的“护身符”。如果没有这样的象征性物品，医生可能会开处方药来缓解恐慌。这些药物能够暂时减轻恐惧和焦虑，放在包里时也能起到安慰作用。因此，我认为这个指示牌对于店主和顾客都起到了安慰剂的效果。BAI: The sign represents a symbolic prohibition. It doesn’t prevent potential attackers in the real world. I focus more on the role this symbolic sign plays for the person who posted it (the shop owner). Since I work in clinical psychiatry at the Sainte-Anne Hospital, I sometimes encounter people who consult due to issues like panic attacks on trains. In such cases, the doctor might first ask if they have any "Objet Antiphobique," as in "anti-phobia object"—essentially, what we commonly refer to as a "talisman". If they don’t have such a symbolic object, the doctor may prescribe medication for panic attacks. While this medication can temporarily alleviate fear and anxiety, simply having it in their bag can provide a comforting effect. So I believe this sign serves as a placebo effect for both the shop owner and the customers.陈：我提到此次展览的结构包含初级和次级防御机制。我想问这种防御设置是可以被理解为初级还是次级，还是说在此系统中并没有明显的区分？Jenny: I mentioned earlier that this exhibition has a structure of primary and secondary defences. I want to ask how this defence setup is categorised—can it be understood as primary or secondary, or is it not distinctly divided in this system?柏：我认为初级和次级防御的区分对于理论学习者来说是方便的，但在现实中，这些防御机制往往是共同作用的，并且可能并不像我们想象的那样明显。例如，在临床心理学中，我们学习TAT测试，这是一种主题统觉测试，我们分析叙述图像时所体现的防御机制。我可以分享一些有趣的例子。有些人描述图像时可能会说：“这让我想到了梵高的画”或“这看起来像好莱坞电影的一个场景”或“这看着像希区柯克的电影”。一般人可能认为这只是描述性的表达，但在我们的分析中，这可能是一种防御机制。当面临冲动时，个体需要通过智性过程将这些情感转化为固定的图像，以减轻其影响。因此，这些细微之处也可能是防御的一种表现。BAI: The distinction between primary and secondary defence is convenient for theoretical learners, but in real life, these mechanisms likely interact together, and defence is only sometimes as obvious as we imagine. For instance, in our clinical psychology studies, we learn about the TAT Test (Thematic Apperception Test), where we analyse defence mechanisms through stories about images. I can share some interesting examples. For instance, someone might describe an image and say, "This reminds me of something from a Van Gogh painting," or "This looks like a scene from a Hollywood movie," or "It resembles a Hitchcock film." While one might think of these as mere descriptive statements, they could represent a defence mechanism. When faced with an influx of impulses, the individual may need to verbalize their feelings through a intellectualisation process, transforming the emotional influx into a fixed image to mitigate its impact. Such subtle expressions could also be forms of defence.陈：你之前分享的关于大象的隐喻也有助于解释人类的防御行为。Jenny: You previously shared an analogy using an elephant and made some differentiation to illustrate distinctions regarding human defensive behaviour.柏：那幅插图是由一位心理治疗师创作的，用以向儿童和青少年解释防御机制。它使用大象的牙齿作为防御机制的象征。牙齿是弯曲的，如果生长过长，可能会刺伤自己。这警示我们，过于激进的防御可能会伤害到自己。因此，防御的平衡至关重要，不能过度。其中一幅有趣的图是一个戴眼镜的老象，看起来颇具学者气质。旁边的说明写着：“有些防御不应只看表面。”虽然这头大象看似聪明，但暗示有些人的防御系统可能依赖于抽象的概念，以避免面对内心的矛盾。在对话中，他们可能会避免讨论一些具体的主题，却抽象化更深层次的问题。这是一种常见的防御形式。如果这种防御变得过于僵化，可能导致个体回避心理矛盾，专注于客观事物。BAI: The illustration was created by a psychotherapist to explain defence mechanisms, particularly to children and adolescents. It uses the metaphor of an elephant's tusk to represent the defence. The tusks are curved, and if they grow too long, they may injure the elephant itself. This serves as a warning: if your defences become too aggressive in guarding against external threats, you may end up harming yourself due to these entrenched defensive mechanisms. Thus, a balance in defence is crucial; it should not become excessive. One interesting aspect is the depiction of an elderly elephant wearing glasses, looking quite scholarly. The caption next to it reads, "Some defences should not be trusted based on appearances." While the elephant appears wise, it suggests that some people's defence systems may rely on abstract concepts to avoid confronting their inner conflicts. They might discuss tangible topics in conversations but abstract from more profound issues. This is a common form of defence in life. If it becomes overly rigid, it can lead to a state where individuals distance themselves from their psychological conflicts, focusing instead on objective discussions.![]()
Claude Martin, Mauvais objet, mauvais sujet (Éditions Jeunesse Et Droit, 2008)
陈：这是否可以理解为制造一种距离，从而使自己不易受到伤害？Jenny: Can this be understood as creating a distance to make oneself less vulnerable to harm?柏：是的，这实际上是一种避免直接处理内心矛盾和欲望的方式。它使个体能够抓住外部现实，减少自身缺陷的暴露。BAI: Yes, it’s a way to avoid directly addressing inner conflicts and desires. It allows individuals to grasp external realities, minimizing the exposure of their flaws.张：我也曾与我的咨询师分享过这个隐喻，他看到戴眼镜的大象后问：“这是什么？”我解释后，他指出许多咨询师也面临用知识来防御僵化感的问题，这很有趣。Yibei: I shared that analogy with my therapist, and he remarked on the elephant wearing glasses, asking, "What is this?" After I explained it, he noted that many therapists face the issue of using knowledge to defend against rigid feelings. It’s pretty interesting.柏：我是学习拉康派理论的。在拉康派中，有一条原则是精神分析师不能表现得像主人。表现得像主人意味着对患者提出的每个问题都有标签来解释，从而提升自己的权威地位，这是任何治疗师都不应采取的方式。BAI: I study Lacanian theory, which posits that psychoanalysts should not present themselves as masters. What does it mean to act like a master? It means having a label for every question or concern the patient raises, and elevating oneself to a position of authority—this is the poorest approach for any therapist.陈：我想到创作是否也可以被视为一种更高级的防御方式？比如移北的Sofia系列，这当然是基于移北朋友的经历。若这是个人经历，它是否可以被视为“转喻”或“升华”？你能先介绍一下Sofia系列吗？我认为它与本次展览很有关系，还涉及到海洋生物的使用及气味这一主题，这与动物界也有相关性。Jenny: I wonder if creation can also be seen as a more advanced form of defence. For instance, I was thinking about Yibei’s Sofia series, which is based on a friend's experience. If this experience is personal, could it be a form of "metonymy" or "sublimation"? Could you first introduce the Sofia series? I believe it relates significantly to this exhibition, including the use of marine life and the mention of scent, which is also relevant in the animal kingdom.张：Sofia项目源于我的一位朋友，她曾经历口腔异味的问题，生活中遭遇了各种不同的反应。有人友好，有人则表现得刺痛。她在与我分享这些经历时，从有一点恐惧、害怕跟自卑转变为一个对抗的心态，最终达到一种顺其自然的状态。她跟我说：“移北你可以帮我做一件作品吗？我想要做一个机器。让我穿上这个机器之后，好像我就变成一个正常人，一个没有味道的、不会散发出这种口腔异味的一个人。”通过她的经历，我就做了一系列作品，每一件作品均以“Sofia”命名。“Sofia”用到海洋元素，包括一些鱼和一些海洋生物，他们可能有一些追逐的方式，或者是“想要抓你过来跟我聊天”的方式。我记得她在开幕当天到场，其实我做这一些系列作品之后，可能因为我自己的原因，跟她联系比较少。但我看到她其实是有一种放下的状态，有一些可以释然的感觉。Yibei: The Sofia project is based on a friend who has some health issues, specifically problems with bad breath. She encountered various reactions from people—some were kind, while others were quite hurtful. When she shared her experiences with me, she transformed from fear and shame to an aggressive state of mind, ultimately reaching a state of acceptance. She asked if I could create a piece for her, a machine that would allow her to feel "normal," as if she didn’t have this odour. Each artwork in the series is called "Sofia," named after her. It incorporates marine elements, where certain fish and sea creatures might engage or interact in various ways, such as chasing, or trying to grab you to talk with them. I remember she came to the opening, and although we hadn’t been in contact much after I created the series, probably because of me, I could see that she was actually in a state of letting go and had found some peace.陈：我想请教一下这是否与防御机制相关。当困境以可描述的方式呈现时，它带来一种释然。这种心理机制是否与女性主义讨论中强调的对不可言说困境的表达的政治力量相关？这种心理机制其实也涉及到女性主义中经常谈到的对原先不可言说的你的困境和处境的清晰表达的政治力量。所以其实我也很好奇，在心理学中是否有类似的界定？Jenny: I also want to ask—I'm not sure if this relates to defence mechanisms—but when your struggles are described, does it bring relief? This psychological mechanism seems to resonate with feminist discussions, which often emphasise the political power of articulating previously unspeakable struggles. So, I’m curious if there is a similar psychological concept regarding this.柏：我认为治疗的方向就是帮助个体获得表达自己经历的主体能动性。BAI: The therapeutic direction is indeed to help individuals gain a sense of agency in articulating their experiences.陈：我很好奇，为什么移北选择海洋生物作为原型？当然，移北并没有给出直接答案。的确艺术家在创作的时候，这一些参考可能更多地出于感性的选择。移北提到，鱼的腥味在人类世界当中它才呈现为腥味，而在海洋中是普遍存在的。这与我们之前讨论的防御系统有关，某些功能在一个系统中表现为防御，而在另一个系统中则可能不是。我最近看了《利维坦》，其视角是来自一艘捕鱼船，导演使用GoPro提供非人类视角，拍摄鱼被捕的过程。这让我一直想到移北的作品。我们之前讨论过防御机制，它们通常同时涉及初级和次级的相互作用，有时难以识别。我们也提到在精神分析中，存在多种测量和测试方法，包括罗夏墨迹测试。Jenny: I’m curious why Yibei chose marine life as a prototype. Of course, Yibei didn’t provide a straightforward answer. Often, artistic choices stem from emotional impulses. One point that resonated with me was Yibei’s comment about the smell of fish, which only seems unpleasant in human contexts, while it’s a shared experience in the ocean. This ties into our earlier discussion about defence systems, where certain functions may serve as defences in one context but not another. I recently watched Leviathan, filmed from a fishing boat, using a GoPro to provide a non-human viewpoint. It captures how fish are caught and brings Yibei's work to my mind. We previously discussed defence mechanisms, noting that they often involve both primary and secondary interactions, which can sometimes be challenging to identify. In psychoanalysis, various measurement and testing methods exist to explore these mechanisms, including the Rorschach test.柏：这些测试，例如罗夏墨迹测试和TAT测试，主要是为了帮助临床工作者进行诊断，而非提供治疗方向。比如儿童和青少年来说很难直接语词化自己所经历的事情、感受到的情绪、身体的体验和痛苦等等，所以通过用图画的方式向他们展现，让他们进行自由联想，可以更好地理解他们的心理装置的组织。BAI: These tests primarily aim to assist clinicians in diagnosing rather than providing a therapeutic direction. For instance, the Rorschach inkblot and TAT (Thematic Apperception Test) serve this function. It's often challenging for children and adolescents to articulate their experiences, emotions, or bodily sensations directly. By presenting them with images and allowing for free association, we can better understand their psychological organisation and mental structures.张：其实这一次我在展览初期有一个天真的想法。因为研究防御机制，我想以一种一种完全没有防御的姿态进入这个展览。我其实努力了有一两个月，想要让自己进到一个完全敞开的状态，最后发现完全没有防御是不可能的。好像在某种程度上，我天然存在的话，就会存在某种防御，这不是不健康的，亦不是单纯应对外界痛苦的防御。很多时候它就是一个存在而已。Yibei: I had a somewhat naive idea at the beginning of this exhibition. Because I was exploring defence mechanisms, I wanted to approach the exhibition completely unguardedly. I tried for a month or two to maintain an open state but ultimately found it impossible to be entirely defenceless. Living in this world inevitably involves some form of defence, which is not necessarily unhealthy or solely a response to external pain. Often, it merely exists as part of being.陈：这其实可以联系到你之前提到的免疫哲学，以及防御总是存在两面性和悖论。可以请你再多讲讲这个吗？Jenny: This connects to your earlier mention of the Philosophy of Immunology, which indicates that defence has duality and paradox. Could you elaborate on that?柏：如果我们考察“免疫”一词的拉丁词源，可以发现它源于“immunitas”，前缀表示否定，“munus”与“共同体（communitas）”的词根相关。根据埃斯波西托的免疫哲学理论，免疫是有个体与共同体的区分的。因为“免疫”这个的词的后缀，涉及到的是一种任务、礼物或者说是债务，这些是属于共同体的。人加入共同体需要付出自己的某些东西，这个东西其实是一种对于共同体的赠与，并且人需要在共同体去赋予一些义务。如果个人想要逃离共同体，则添加“im”前缀。因此，每个人免疫系统的独特性，是区分他自己个体的独特性的一种标志。BAI: If we examine the etymology of "Immunology," we find it derives from the Latin word "immunitas," where the prefix indicates negation. The root "munus" relates to "communitas." According to Esposito’s theory of immunological philosophy, immunity distinguishes the individual from the community. Joining a community requires contributing something, which is a kind of gift or obligation to that community. If an individual seeks to escape the community, the prefix "im" is added. Thus, the unique characteristics of one’s immune system mark one's individuality.陈：您提到病理学上的癌症这个案例，癌症曾作为一种人类最头疼的不愈之症，涉及整个免疫系统的运作。即使大家未曾患癌，也能通过不同的影视作品了解其诊断与治疗。癌症很多时候会涉及化疗，化疗常常伴随副作用，有时病人因化疗而非癌症去世。Jenny: You also mentioned pathology and referenced cancer. Cancer, as a historically daunting disease, involves the workings of the immune system. Even those who have never had cancer can understand its diagnosis and treatment through various media. Often, chemotherapy is involved, but it has side effects that sometimes lead to death not from cancer, but from the treatment itself.柏：最近几年，生物学家和医学家们共同努力提出免疫学疗法。这一方法不仅考察肿瘤本身，还考察其周围的微环境。再考察肿瘤本身，而是考察肿瘤周围的微环境。实际上可以夸张的说，所有肿瘤的形成与免疫系统脱不了关系。免疫系统习以为常于一些慢性元素后，可能会将肿瘤成分视为正常，经过系统的培养，进入逃逸阶段后，免原先疫系统对这些培养、制造肿瘤的元素的容忍，导致其逃避控制并发展为恶性肿瘤。虽然免疫系统最初旨在消除抑制性的元素进入自身机体之内，但同时也是是一个双面性的系统，它也会去促成肿瘤的生长。BAI: Recently, biologists and medical professionals have been collaborating on immunotherapy. Rather than focusing solely on the tumour, this approach examines its surrounding microenvironment. Essentially, all tumour formation relates to the immune system. There are three phases in the immune response: elimination, equilibrium, and escape. The immune system often becomes accustomed to chronic elements, eventually recognising tumour components as usual. As it adapts over time, it reaches an escape phase where the immune system tolerates these tumour-promoting elements, allowing them to evade control and develop into malignant tumours. While the immune system initially aims to eliminate harmful elements entering the body, it is also a dual-purpose system that can inadvertently promote tumour growth.陈：这让我想到一部美剧，涉及“奥施康定（OxyContin）”的药物问题。最初其作为止痛药流行，后来被发现具有成瘾性。剧中有一个情节，呈现出人们对于痛感的不同理解，以及是否应消除痛感的思考。这也涉及到关于预防与防御的辩证性的理解。“奥施康定”原先在美国盛行，很多人发现其在帮助消除痛苦的同时又有成瘾性，他们觉得这个是可以接受的。但在推向欧洲时遭到欧盟代表人的拒绝，他们指出“我们对疼痛的理解不同”，认为疼痛并非需阻隔的个人体验。我认为这种对防御或防疫的理解触及了生命政治的核心问题：何为健康的生命，或何为生命。这值得展开探讨。
Jenny: This reminds me of a recent TV series that deals with a drug called OxyContin. Initially popular as a painkiller, it was later discovered to be addictive. One notable detail in the show highlights people's perceptions of pain and whether it should be eliminated. This raises questions about the dialectics of defence and prevention. OxyContin was widely accepted in the U.S. for its efficacy in pain relief despite its addictive nature. However, when the promoters attempted to introduce it in Europe, the EU rejected it. The representatives argued, "We have a different understanding of pain." They viewed pain not as something that needs to be blocked but as a personal experience that holds significance. This perspective on defence and prevention touches on core issues of biopolitics: what constitutes a healthy life or what it means to live. This could lead to further exploration of the topic.
柏：欧洲的反对主要源于康吉莱姆医学认识论的理论基础，特别是在他作品《疗愈教育可行吗？》中区分了“疗愈”和“治愈”的不同异议。“疗愈”与病人的主观恢复感相关，而“治愈”则对外部有指射。对于专家或者医生来讲，需要一些外部的因素去判断它在临床上是否构成一个治愈。可以举一个具体的例子，比如“腕管道综合症”，它的通俗名称是“鼠标手”。在医生那里，他可能根据所学的知识，作为医生的义务，立刻去消除病人的痛苦。他可以通过外科手术来释放神经压力。然而，随之而来的副作用可能是握力不足或腕力不足，最终导致病人能动性和主动性的丧失。相比之下，按照中医的做法，可能会选择更慢性的治疗过程，刺激神经或让患者锻炼手部肌肉，以达到减缓疼痛的效果。这促使我们思考防御机制与个体抵抗力及生命独特性之间的关系。究竟什么才是治愈或治疗呢？我们是否应考虑病人自认为的正常，即他们独立生活并获得抵御外部侵袭的能力，还是依据临床医学的结果来定义正常？
这两方面需要综合考虑，不能只关注其中一方。因此，无论是心理治疗还是医学治疗，帮助一个人恢复他认为的正常状态，实际上应该帮助他开发能调动的资源，以促成良性的恢复或治疗过程。这涉及到他自身免疫或防御的独特性，是否能够形成自我认知，或创造适合自己的环境。
BAI: The opposition in Europe largely stems from their theoretical foundation based on Congilhem's epistemology of medicine, particularly his work Is a Pedagogy of Healing Possible? This distinction is crucial; "healing" relates to the patient's subjective sense of recovery, while "curing" requires external validation from experts or doctors. For example, take carpal tunnel syndrome, commonly known as "mouse hand." Adhering to their training, doctors feel compelled to alleviate the patient’s pain, often through surgery to relieve nerve pressure. However, this can lead to side effects like weakened grip strength, ultimately diminishing the patient's autonomy. In contrast, traditional Chinese medicine may adopt a more gradual approach, focusing on stimulating nerves or encouraging muscle strengthening to alleviate pain. This raises important questions about the relationship between defence mechanisms, resistance, and the uniqueness of life. What truly constitutes healing or treatment? Should we prioritise the patient's perception of normalcy—enabling them to resist external threats—or adhere to clinical definitions? Both perspectives need to be integrated. In psychological or medical therapy, the goal should be to help individuals restore their sense of normalcy by mobilising their resources for a positive recovery process. This involves recognising their unique immune or defence systems and fostering their ability to create and control their environment.
陈：关于防御的独特性，我们之前没有深入探讨的另一个主题是动物形态的美学。移北在此次展览中使用了许多这样的元素，例如螺的壳和其他不同的动物。我在网上查阅关于贝壳的百科全书式图谱时，被贝壳的构造惊艳，它们给我一种非常巴洛克式的美感。这也回应了小柏提到的防御的独特性，动物的形态是长期积累和演变的结果，尤其在贝壳上表现得尤为明显。贝壳的防御机制非常外显，复杂的螺旋和层叠结构都一目了然。我想请移北介绍一下，这次展览中涉及到哪些动物形态？
Jenny: Speaking of the uniqueness of defence, we haven’t discussed the aesthetics of animal forms in our conversation. Yibei has incorporated various elements, such as shells and different animals. I found a comprehensive diagram of shells online and was amazed by their intricate structures reminiscent of Baroque aesthetics. This also relates to what BAI mentioned about the uniqueness of animal defences, which may evolve and accumulate over time. This transformation is particularly evident in shells, whose external defences are visually striking, showcasing complex spirals and layers. I found that quite moving. I’d like to ask Yibei to introduce the types of animal forms selected for this exhibition. What specific shapes or characteristics have you chosen to highlight?
张：在此次展览中，我使用了一些贝壳，包括海胆和沙币等。制作过程中，我主要关注这些生物的形状及其看似的保护特性。然而，有些动物或海洋生物的防御方式不仅仅是退缩或自我保护，更多的是以攻击作为防御手段。我考虑过如何消解这些所谓的攻击，或者将它们拆分开来，以创造出其他形式。不过，我并没有特别强调它们的防御属性，而是更像是我在这一时间段内与这些元素建立了一些联系，探索相关的保护概念。例如，我制作了一个像秋千的作品，其本体是保护生物的内部结构，但我将其翻转，使其成为一个可以坐的外部形式。观众可以在这个作品上体验和互动。大家可以自行欣赏。Yibei: In this exhibition, I’ve included shells, sea urchins, and sand dollars. While designing, I often focused on their shapes and protective appearances. However, some marine creatures’ defences are not just about retreat or self-protection; they also involve aggression. I thought about deconstructing these perceived attacks to explore other forms. Ultimately, I didn’t emphasise their defensive attributes; instead, I connected with them during this period, creating something resembling a swing, where the original protective form is inverted, allowing people to interact with it.陈：我想请移北补充一下，刚才提到你希望创造一个非常互动性的展示空间，使观展体验变得不同寻常。能否请你分享一下这样设计的原因？Jenny: I want to ask Yibei to elaborate on the exhibition design, especially the interactive display space, which creates a distinct viewing experience. Why did you choose this?张：我希望观众在进入展厅时能够从不同的角度欣赏作品。虽然每个人在观看作品时自然会有不同的视角，但在这个空间中，他们依然能够体验到多样的观察角度。例如，有时是低视角，有时是高视角，这种变化可能会引发观众内心的感受变化。有趣的是，在讨论设计起伏时，机构也提出了安全问题。上坡时相对安全，但下坡时可能存在滑倒或崴脚的风险，因此机构考虑了相应的保护措施。这一设计考量让我觉得非常有意思。Yibei: I wanted to create an environment where visitors could view the artwork from different angles. Of course, everyone has their perspective when viewing art, but I aimed to enable varied viewpoints within the space. For example, sometimes low, sometimes high—these shifts could evoke internal changes.陈：小柏刚才提到，这可能与儿童游乐设施的设计以及对儿童心理学的理解有关，也请小柏再具体说一下。Jenny: BAI also mentioned how this relates to children's play settings and our understanding of child psychology. Could you elaborate?柏：我其实是进行了一个自由联想。回想我前两年在儿童临床工作时，儿童的防御方式常常通过游戏表现出来。在治疗过程中，很多时候也是通过游戏来引导他们。例如，我们经常会看到一些小男孩进入诊室时，看到玩具箱后，便抓起许多玩具进行投掷，或者组织战争、进行打斗，甚至进行一些破坏性活动。这可能是他们对理想自我形象的一种保存与支撑，试图展现出无所不能的状态，这在他们这个年龄段是非常正常的心理过程。在临床治疗中，我们可以利用这种游戏。例如，可以制定一些规则。如果他们想玩恐龙或狮子等玩具，可以邀请他们制定一些战争的规则。这种方式将纯粹的身体展示与释放转化为具有符号意义的活动，帮助他们建立自己的秩序，完成一种艺术和创造的过程。这种方法比较微妙，有助于处理那些可能被视为具有压迫性的行为，而这种压迫性也是成人对防御方式的理解。BAI: I was making a free association here. Reflecting on my clinical work with children over the past few years, I noticed that their defence mechanisms often manifest through games. Therapeutic guidance is frequently conducted within this playful context. For instance, when young boys enter a therapy room and see a toy box, they might grab various items to throw or organise mock battles, engaging in destructive play. This behaviour may reflect their ideal self-image, showcasing a sense of omnipotence, which is typical for their developmental stage. In clinical treatment, we can utilise these play activities by establishing rules. For example, if a child wants to use toy dinosaurs or lions, we can invite them to create rules for their battles. This transforms pure physical expression into something more symbolic, helping them to establish order and engage in creativity. This approach delicately addresses behaviours perceived as oppressive, often interpreted through an adult lens of defence mechanisms.陈：这次展览的设置创造了一种动线，仿佛置身于游乐场中，同时也包含了一些规则或边界的形式。小柏，您如何看待边界这个概念？Jenny: The structure in this exhibition sets a pathway, resembling a playground with rules and boundaries. BAI, what are your thoughts on the concept of boundaries?柏：我刚刚提到，设置规则的目的在于帮助个体建立自己的边界。这种边界不仅限于游戏的范畴，更是个体与他者之间的界限。这些边界并非僵化，而是鼓励个体积极调动自身的方式和资源，适度地对抑制性元素进行开放和容忍。这与免疫机制相关，涉及到免疫耐受，即个体如何合理地接受外来元素和抑制性细胞，同时具备排除的灵活性。因此，我们不能将心理系统或结构设定为僵化的、钢铁般的防御模式，而应帮助个体训练出一种弹性，来判断什么应该接受，什么应当排除。这可以理解为自我边界与社会规则之间的弹性。当两者发生冲突时，心理健康的标志不在于绝对的免疫，而在于其应具备的弹性。
BAI: Setting rules helps children establish their boundaries, which are not just about play but also define their interactions with others. These boundaries should not be rigid; they should allow children to actively engage their resources and open up to some tolerance for inhibiting elements. This concept relates to immunity, particularly the idea of immune tolerance—how one reasonably accepts and incorporates suppressive cells or external aspects while maintaining the ability to exclude them flexibly.
It’s crucial not to view psychological systems as overly rigid, akin to a steel-like defence mechanism. Instead, we should assist individuals in developing a more elastic approach to determining what to accept or reject. This flexibility is vital, especially when personal boundaries conflict with societal rules. Ultimately, psychological health is characterised not by invulnerability but by elasticity.
陈：感谢二位今天拨冗讨论移北的展览。我也期待大家在展览结束后能够与移北进行更多互动。谢谢！Jenny: Thank you both for taking the time to discuss Yibei's exhibition today. I look forward to seeing how visitors engage with Yibei’s work after the exhibition. Thank you!开放时间
Opening Hours
每周二至周六上午10:30时至下午6:00时
Tuesday–Saturday 10:30–18:00
地址 Address
上海市静安区文安路30号四层
4/F, 30 Wen’an Road,
Jing’an District, Shanghai
相关链接
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